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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juzzo View Post
    These are great tables, lots of time compiling. Excellent resource.

    But just one thing I don't get is why we compare DT to SC.
    If someone scores better in DT to SC (ie Tom Mitchell) I don't see what that has to do with assessing your selection in either SC or DT.
    Why don't we just assess players for the platform we play, either DT or SC.
    They are 2 separate identities.
    After all this a Supercoach forum.

    Am I thinking about this wrong?
    I think its a stat that actually helps with assessing the quality of possession with regard to the two scoring systems. I might be wrong, but the closer the DT/SC score over time, the more reliable and consistent a scorer the player is; and alternately, the wider the ratio, the more the quality goes down, especially with the range of interpretation active in Supercoach scoring.

    That's my vague understanding, anyway. Um, Bomber 18, Rowsus...?
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmer View Post
    I think its a stat that actually helps with assessing the quality of possession with regard to the two scoring systems. I might be wrong, but the closer the DT/SC score over time, the more reliable and consistent a scorer the player is; and alternately, the wider the ratio, the more the quality goes down, especially with the range of interpretation active in Supercoach scoring.

    That's my vague understanding, anyway. Um, Bomber 18, Rowsus...?
    From my perspective I see the DT score as an indicator of the Quantity of ball a player can get and the SC score is as an indicator of the Quality of the possessions and disposals which a player has. ie. The DT generates the volume cake and the Quality of the possessions/disposals wil add the icing on the cake.
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  3. #23
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    That both makes sense Zim and RB, but I spose what I'm getting at is when I assess a player for my SC team, I really don't consider their DT stats/score.
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  4. #24
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    Adding to the above, say if Bont is a better SC scorer than DT, it doesn't automatically make him a good pick in SC.
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  5. #25
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    So some people may select a player for their SC team based only on the fact that their SC to DT ratio is superior. When really their DT stats are irrelevant.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juzzo View Post
    That both makes sense Zim and RB, but I spose what I'm getting at is when I assess a player for my SC team, I really don't consider their DT stats/score.
    You can judge a players season by their dt:sc ratio. Below is Ablett's. Last year is such a bad ratio compared to his history that clearly there was something wrong. You couldn't argue his shoulder because it was still high the previous years after he had hurt his shoulder. Was it Gold Coast derailing? Was it the fact he requested a trade home and it didn't happen? He seemed to refuse to travel, missing all the away games at one stage. Putting aside any other questions you might have about Ablett it shows he had an off year with the quality of his football and there is room for improvement in his supercoach average.

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    I also find it useful to compare early bolters to see if their scoring is sustainable, especially rookies. It's easy to have a high ratio in one game but difficult to maintain.

    This is Jack Graham.

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    That Grand Final was out of this world and unreliable for looking at how he might score this year.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by freowho View Post
    You can judge a players season by their dt:sc ratio. Below is Ablett's. Last year is such a bad ratio compared to his history that clearly there was something wrong. You couldn't argue his shoulder because it was still high the previous years after he had hurt his shoulder. Was it Gold Coast derailing? Was it the fact he requested a trade home and it didn't happen? He seemed to refuse to travel, missing all the away games at one stage. Putting aside any other questions you might have about Ablett it shows he had an off year with the quality of his football and there is room for improvement in his supercoach average.

    Name:  Ablett.JPG
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    I also find it useful to compare early bolters to see if their scoring is sustainable, especially rookies. It's easy to have a high ratio in one game but difficult to maintain.

    This is Jack Graham.

    Name:  Jack Graham.JPG
Views: 235
Size:  18.2 KB

    That Grand Final was out of this world and unreliable for looking at how he might score this year.
    Interesting Freowho, without evidence may it be that Ablett's CPs to UPs ratio was down too?
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juzzo View Post
    Interesting Freowho, without evidence may it be that Ablett's CPs to UPs ratio was down too?
    He averaged about 5 less contested possessions to uncontested but he has done something similar a number of times without affecting his SC: DT ratio.

    His second worst ratio was in 2010 when he and Bomber Thompson weren't talking to each other. Danger seems to enjoy being back home as well.
    Last edited by THCLT; 09-02-2018 at 10:41pm. Reason: space after : and before D...just for lols
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juzzo View Post
    That both makes sense Zim and RB, but I spose what I'm getting at is when I assess a player for my SC team, I really don't consider their DT stats/score.
    I'd suggest that - if what I said is correct - it really only has a SC perspective. The lower the ratio, and the higher the (consistent) score, the more reliable SC player you have.

    (Still waiting for the gurus to have the final say.)
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juzzo View Post
    These are great tables, lots of time compiling. Excellent resource.

    But just one thing I don't get is why we compare DT to SC.
    If someone scores better in DT to SC (ie Tom Mitchell) I don't see what that has to do with assessing your selection in either SC or DT.
    Why don't we just assess players for the platform we play, either DT or SC.
    They are 2 separate identities.
    After all this a Supercoach forum.

    Am I thinking about this wrong?
    Thanks Zimmer, RB & frewho for chiming in with your responses but I'll provide my own understanding and interpretation fwiw.

    A player's DT score is exclusively derived from their 'raw' stats and does not factor in things like whether they were effective, contested, lead to scoring involvements, etc. To that end, we can use a player's underlying 'raw' stats to 'predict' their DT score with a much greater degree of confidence than we could their SC score. Thus, their SC to DT ratio can be a useful parameter to help us assess a number of variables which ultimately are the drivers behind each player's SC scores (in addition to their raw stats). As a general rule, players' SC to DT ratio are typically in the 0.9 to 1.1 range. For argument sake, anything less than 0.9 we can class the player as an 'average' user of the ball with very little impact, greater than 1.1 are usually the realm of an elite user who significantly impact on games.

    Freowho also points out a very good observation for how to effectively use the ratio, that is, to gauge whether a player's scoring pattern is sustainable or not. This can either be applied to assessing the 'early' bolters of a season, the credential of a breakout candidate, scoring of Rookies, etc. The ratio won't provide you with all the answers but it will definitely help you to make an informed decision as long as your expectations are realistic.

    As I alluded to earlier, that 0.9 to 1.1 ratio range has been established over a number of years and the majority of players would fall into that range. To highlight this, of the 92 players who managed an SC average of 90+ in 2017, only 11 (12%) had a ratio of greater than 1.1. Further to this, only 4 managed a ratio of greater than 1.15 (Mumford, Rich, J McGovern & Rance). Like I mention, the ratio gives us a preview into the 'type' and/or 'style' of a player: Mumford's has always been a bash & crash contested type and has immense impact, his ratio has trended at 1.17 since 2010; Rich is an elite user of the ball when he's on song and drives a lot of their scoring forays, has averaged 1.20 since 2013; McGovern's an interesting one as 2017 was his worst ratio (1.16) in his 4 years' history but was his best SC average season, his ratio read 1.30, 1.36 & 1.26 for the prior years; We all know that Rance possess a CD 'Gold' pass so it should be no surprise that he's the highest of the 4 with a ratio of 1.37. Since obtaining this pass in 2011, his average ratio sits at a ridiculous 1.27!

    So in summary, you don't have to use it if you feel that it's meaningless and doesn't have a bearing on how a player scores in SC...and that's somewhat correct and OK. But for coaches who are looking for that every bit of 'extra' data to assist them with their assessment of a player, then it can be useful to guide them through that final process.
    Last edited by THCLT; 09-02-2018 at 8:48pm.
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  11. #31
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    I think a good SC: Dt ratio player is better because it helps if they can score more off less stats cause it can offset an otherwise poor stats game and gives you hope for the occasional belter score

    It’s a useful indicator when playing SC

    Whether that answers the question I’m not sure
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  12. #32
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    It’s also a good indicator of upside if we think poor SC ratio player can address the cause of the poor ratio. Some can’t its just the way they are

    Finally, on rookies a good SC ratio junior is a better than even chance of being the better cash cow scoring more from less stats.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by THCLT View Post
    Thanks Zimmer, RB & frewho for chiming in with your responses but I'll provide my own understanding and interpretation fwiw.

    A player's DT score is exclusively derived from their 'raw' stats and does not factor in things like whether they were effective, contested, lead to scoring involvements, etc. To that end, we can use a player's underlying 'raw' stats to 'predict' their DT score with a much greater degree of confidence than we could their SC score. Thus, their SC to DT ratio can be a useful parameter to help us assess a number of variables which ultimately are the drivers behind each player's SC scores (in addition to their raw stats). As a general rule, players' SC to DT ratio are typically in the 0.9 to 1.1 range. For argument sake, anything less than 0.9 we can class the player as an 'average' user of the ball with very little impact, greater than 1.1 are usually the realm of an elite user who significantly impact on games.

    Freowho also points out a very good observation for how to effectively use the ratio, that is, to gauge whether a player's scoring pattern is sustainable or not. This can either be applied to assessing the 'early' bolters of a season, the credential of a breakout candidate, scoring of Rookies, etc. The ratio won't provide you with all the answers but it will definitely help you to make an informed decision as long as your expectations are realistic.

    As I alluded to earlier, that 0.9 to 1.1 ratio range has been established over a number of years and the majority of players would fall into that range. To highlight this, of the 92 players who managed an SC average of 90+ in 2017, only 11 (12%) had a ratio of greater than 1.1. Further to this, only 4 managed a ratio of greater than 1.15 (Mumford, Rich, J McGovern & Rance). Like I mention, the ratio gives us a preview into the 'type' and/or 'style' of a player: Mumford's has always been a bash & crash contested type and has immense impact, his ratio has trended at 1.17 since 2010; Rich is an elite user of the ball when he's on song and drives a lot of their scoring forays, has averaged 1.20 since 2013; McGovern's an interesting one as 2017 was his worst ratio (1.16) in his 4 years' history but was his best SC average season, his ratio read 1.30, 1.36 & 1.26 for the prior years; We all know that Rance possess a CD 'Gold' pass so it should be no surprise that he's the highest of the 4 with a ratio of 1.37. Since obtaining this pass in 2011, his average ratio sits at a ridiculous 1.27!

    So in summary, you don't have to use it if you feel that it's meaningless and doesn't have a bearing on how a player scores in SC...and that's somewhat correct and OK. But for coaches who are looking for that every bit of 'extra' data to assist them with their assessment of a player, then it can be useful to guide them through that final process.
    Beautifully explained THCLT. You fully understood my comment/question.
    I can see now how this DT data may be helpful.
    Thanks
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by freowho View Post
    You can judge a players season by their dt:sc ratio. Below is Ablett's. Last year is such a bad ratio compared to his history that clearly there was something wrong. You couldn't argue his shoulder because it was still high the previous years after he had hurt his shoulder. Was it Gold Coast derailing? Was it the fact he requested a trade home and it didn't happen? He seemed to refuse to travel, missing all the away games at one stage. Putting aside any other questions you might have about Ablett it shows he had an off year with the quality of his football and there is room for improvement in his supercoach average.

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    I also find it useful to compare early bolters to see if their scoring is sustainable, especially rookies. It's easy to have a high ratio in one game but difficult to maintain.

    This is Jack Graham.

    Name:  Jack Graham.JPG
Views: 235
Size:  18.2 KB

    That Grand Final was out of this world and unreliable for looking at how he might score this year.
    Great stats freo. Interesting that he had essentially his second best ever DT season ... not many would have picked that.
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  15. #35
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    Great thread Thanh.

    The only good thing about the BBL having finished is that it brings some of SCS' most ardent members back to the main boards.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkie View Post
    Great stats freo. Interesting that he had essentially his second best ever DT season ... not many would have picked that.
    He was carrying the team last year when he played. Remember Rocky’s late season mega run a few years back when he was carrying his team as well. It’s hard to know what to expect from Gaz this year back at Geelong. One big difference compared to his glory days is his shoulder which won’t magically fix just because he is at a new team.

    I would have expected to see him in more teams TBH. He’s on my shortlist.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
    He was carrying the team last year when he played. Remember Rocky’s late season mega run a few years back when he was carrying his team as well. It’s hard to know what to expect from Gaz this year back at Geelong. One big difference compared to his glory days is his shoulder which won’t magically fix just because he is at a new team.

    I would have expected to see him in more teams TBH. He’s on my shortlist.
    Gaz burned me a few years ago while he was going through his shoulder recovery phase. I sadly put him on my never again list at the time and have been pretty happy with that call since then. I'm still sticking with that call at the moment, especially at Gaz's current starting price, but I'm not entirely sure whether that is due to stubbornness or good judgement.... It may be something I need to examine more closely in the coming weeks.
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