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View Poll Results: Will you select a Floating Donut?

Voters
77. REGISTER to Vote.
  • 1. Definitely

    23 29.87%
  • 2. Likely

    12 15.58%
  • 3. Unsure

    14 18.18%
  • 4. Unlikely

    12 15.58%
  • 5. No

    16 20.78%
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  1. #1
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    10 Not allowed!

    As you are aware, this year in SuperCoach there was a rule change whereby there is a rolling lock out FOR each game and in addition we were gifted 6 additional trades from 24 trades to 30 trades. As a consequence, being the nice guy I am (yikes!), I tried to looked for a way to try to give SuperCoach Scores members and guests an advantage over others.

    You should read the following articles in order to understand the Pros and Cons of the Floating Donut:


    I know there has been lots of thinking, overthinking and sometimes underthinking whether we should have the Floating Donut. Some people say Yes, some say No, some say Maybe.

    For me, it has always been a Yes, however the question has always been is the benefit just the Captain Loophole or with the Emergency Player Loophole?

    I think the main reason against the Floating Donut is that there is a belief, a valid one too, that you may be sacrificing a potential cash cow valued $200K. As previously mentioned, I've used the value of a cash cow as $200K, mainly because I believe it's the median and average profit a Cash Cow generates Some cash cows can appreciate in value to $200K (ie $100K profit) and others to $400K (ie $300K profit), so let's just meet halfway. My views of the projected profit of a cash cow is discussed in the Value of a Cash Cow? article.

    For me, the SuperCoach pre-season is like studying for an exam.

    At first you study for an expected or hinted question for an exam. The answer which you picture in your head is correct, but it might not be that good (ie Sam Dwyer). You look for ways to improve your answer and you continue to picture your answer in your head and your answer slowly improves (ie Jake Neade). Strangely, when you cram in for this exam in the last hour before you leave to drive to your exam, in our case for SuperCoach in the last few days, the answer is a bit clearer, much clearer.

    For this article, I have assumed everyone has a fair portion of the common player such as:

    B - Goddard, Goodes, Pittard, Stevenson, Terlich
    M - Ablett, Swan/Pendles, K.Mitchell/Wines, O'Meara, Crouch, M.Jones/Viney

    Note for this aRticle, Pendles can be used in place of Swan, Wines can be used in place of Mitchell and Viney instead of M. Jones.

    My Floating Donut is: Cameron Richardson (North), DEF/MID, $115,900

    R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 R9 R10 AVE
    ADE 1 4 9 8 5 4 7 9 8 3 5.8
    BRL 4 4 6 9 8 7 3 2 6 1 5.0
    CAR 3 8 5 5 5 8 9 7 6 2 5.8
    COL 8 8 8 3 1 1 6 5 1 1 4.2
    ESS 1 5 1 4 1 2 1 2 5 4 2.8
    FRE 2 3 1 2 3 6 6 6 9 3 4.1
    GEE 9 7 5 1 6 5 1 5 2 5 4.6
    GCS 6 2 6 6 4 6 8 4 7 5 5.4
    GWS 5 6 4 7 4 2 7 3 3 2 4.3
    HAW 9 9 8 2 9 4 5 3 7 7 6.3
    MEL 7 5 3 7 8 8 8 8 9 7 7.0
    NTH 8 7 2 9 9 3 4 1 8 8 5.9
    PTA 7 6 9 6 7 3 2 7 2 6 5.5
    RIC 3 1 7 3 3 5 2 8 5 9 4.6
    STK 6 1 4 4 2 1 9 9 4 8 4.8
    SYD 5 2 2 1 2 7 5 6 1 4 3.5
    WCE 2 9 3 5 7 9 3 1 3 9 5.1
    WBD 4 3 7 8 6 9 4 4 4 6 5.5
    NTH 8 7 2 9 9 3 4 1 8 8 5.9
    GCS 6 2 6 6 4 6 8 4 7 5 5.4
    COL 8 8 8 3 1 1 6 5 1 1 4.2
    PTA 7 6 9 6 7 3 2 7 2 6 5.5
    WBD 4 3 7 8 6 9 4 4 4 6 5.5
    MEL 7 5 3 7 8 8 8 8 9 7 7.0
    ESS 1 5 1 4 1 2 1 2 5 4 2.8
    Capt Swan Swan Ablett Ablett Ablett Ablett Ablett NA Ablett Ablett
    Vice Ablett Ablett Goddard Swan Swan Swan Goddard NA Swan Swan
    Def (e) Goodes Goodes Pittard Goodes Pittard Pittard Pittard
    Mid (e) O'Meara O'Meara O'Meara O'Meara Mitchell Mitchell Mitchell
    Def (s) Pittard Pittard Goodes Terlich Goodes Goodes Terlich
    Mid (s) M.Jones M.Jones M.Jones M.Jones O'Meara O'Meara M.Jones

    Based on the above table and using Cameron Richardson as the Floating Donut in the first 10 rounds, you get:

    1. Captain Loophole (9 times with one of them Goddard)
    2. Emergency Player Loophole (7 times at both positions)

    The main reason for Cameron Richardson are as follows:

    1. Dual Position Player (DEF/MID)
    2. Rookie Priced ($115,900)
    3. Rookie Listed (and requires elevation)
    4. North Melbourne's Draw is perfectly suited to the main Rookies' draw

    Now one of the toughest questions is when do a accept a vice-captain's score or an emergency player's score. For me, and as simply a guide, I would probably accept the following:

    1. Vice-Captain - 130
    2. Emergency Player - 70

    You would also look at what you believe the real captain or the starting player is likely to score, based on form and opponent.

    Naturally, sometimes you may accept the vice-captain or emergency player's score, however the captain or the potential starter actually scores more, thus the Captain Loophole and Emergency Player Loopole is actually a disadvantage.

    However, for me, I prefer to choose my own destiny and rather get a score I'm happy to accept than risk a captain have an LTI or a rookie being subbed off. Thus if I select Swan/Ablett as my vice captain and accept a score of 130 then I accept the risk that Ablett/Swan my captain may score higher than my vice-captain. However, don't forget at the time you accepted your vice-captain's score of 130, you knew the risk and thus you can't have your cake and eat it nor use the '20-20 Hindsight decision making method'.

    Just note in round 4, while I've left it empty for the Emergency Player Loophole, you can potentially use Goddard as the EMG, just in case he has a stinker or has a LTI. Some people may say by using the Emergency Player you sacrifice the player as if the Emergency Player does well, you can't have another Emergency Player on the same line as you'd get the lower score. However, with the rolling lockout it wouldn't matter as you would simply trade out a player if you had a potential donut or you would start the 2nd bench player. Therefore, in reality if you watch every game you don't really need an Emergency Player.

    I want to highlight it is not for me to persuade you adopt the Floating Donut as it really depends on your team structure and what you think a cash cow is worth. Just as an exercise, if you believe the Floating Donut costs $200K, which cash cow do you think you will have which I won't?

    You can't name the rookies listed above as they are already in my side, ie you can't say if O'Meara averages 100 that I missed a cash cow as I have him. It has to be a player that I have sacrificed for Richardson. For example only, you choose Hrovat as the cash cow alternative to Richardson. If Hrovat scores 100+, 100+, then obviously there is a benefit with the points scored, however don't think that the gain is $200K. The reason is I'd simply trade Hrovat in when he is on the bubble. However, isn't that just the same as missing a rookie generally, yes I know with 1 less chance.

    Please do not select your team based on the above default players as you may have others, which means you simply need to adapt the table above. However, I think most SuperCoach teams will have the Port Adelaide, Melbourne, Gold Coast and Western Bulldogs listed above, so I'm looking forward to everyone having Cameron Richardson (often known as 'lolRicho' in the fantasy football circle) LOL. On a side issue, I'm a bit disappointed that all the good rookies and potential cash cows play for a team that have games late in my rounds.

    I'm looking forward to seeing the final results of the Poll, but I know the decision whether or not to adopt the Floating Donut does depend on each team's structure, whether the same rookies are selected and more importantly how many premiums or mid-priced players are in the midfield and defence.

    I believe advice in theory should be applied in practice. If you decide not to adopt the Floating Donut, you need to ask yourself the question, who will be your captain and vice-captin in round 1? Possible scenarios include:

    • Ablett as vice-captain and Swan as captain, which would mean you are adopting the Floating Donut. The reason is generally you would expect Ablett captain before Swan, so Ablett should be captain.
    • Dangerfield as vice-captain and Ablett as captain. If Dangerfield scores 160, will you still have him as a vice-captain and hope Ablett scores 160+ or are you tempted to have a Floating Donut? What happens if you refuse to select a Floating Donut and Ablett has an injury and is subbed off?


    You need to do a Round 1, What If scenario on who is your captain and your vice-captain in round 1.

    Note: if you want a Forward/Midfield then Ben Speight would do just as well as he is also rookie listed.
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  2. #2
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    2 Not allowed!

    Nice work Jay.

    I have done something similar using my likely rookies.

    The other thing to remember is to add in any R/F floating donuts if one has them. So in Round 8 where the captaincy loophole has not been used above if you factor in either Rowe or McBean (if you have them and they don't play!) whos teams play in the 7/8th matches you should be able have Goddard vice and Ablett captain for that round.
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  3. #3
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    3 Not allowed!

    My brain hurts looking at that! Good work!

    The ability to use it almost every week exposes my real problem with Supercoach this year being the rolling lockout. It really does advantage people who are able to make the time to monitor everything closely all weekend. Anyone who has to work weekends or plays sport etc is at a potentially massive disadvantage. As I have said before imagine explaining to the coach that you need a sub at 1.45pm on a saturday to adjust your team!

    I might use a non playing ruckman from time to time if the stars align but otherwise I wont be utilising it notwithstanding the potential rewards.
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  4. #4
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    1 Not allowed!

    I've got big Cox and I feel he is more likely to give me a 130+ score than Goddard. So I'll be going for the mid/fwd swinger.
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  5. #5
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    0 Not allowed!

    Great article, been interesting watching the floating donut debate evolve over recent months

    I debated the MID/DEF floating donut and couldn't justify the loss of a mid rookie position (for me, the opportunity cost is a mitchell, stevens, kommer etc who would otherwise be in my side). I have gone for the DEF/FWD floating donut of Staker, who will interchange with Watts. This also works with Rowe/Cox in my RUC/FWD line to provide a lot of optionality. Once Staker starts playing, I'll move to a RUC/FWD floating donut only. Good luck all!
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  6. #6
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    0 Not allowed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Philzsay View Post
    Nice work Jay.

    I have done something similar using my likely rookies.

    The other thing to remember is to add in any R/F floating donuts if one has them. So in Round 8 where the captaincy loophole has not been used above if you factor in either Rowe or McBean (if you have them and they don't play!) whos teams play in the 7/8th matches you should be able have Goddard vice and Ablett captain for that round.
    Agree and I don't have a problem with a second floating donut, but I think it has less value if it's only covering for 2-3 rounds. It's still valueable but the cost of the floating donut and the benefit dimishes as the first floating donut should in theory cover most of your Captain Loophole and Emergency Player Loophole.

    I think the R/F floating donut is good if it was part of your plan to move Cox in FWD and RUC scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywhitebirds View Post
    Great article, been interesting watching the floating donut debate evolve over recent months

    I debated the MID/DEF floating donut and couldn't justify the loss of a mid rookie position (for me, the opportunity cost is a mitchell, stevens, kommer etc who would otherwise be in my side). I have gone for the DEF/FWD floating donut of Staker, who will interchange with Watts. This also works with Rowe/Cox in my RUC/FWD line to provide a lot of optionality. Once Staker starts playing, I'll move to a RUC/FWD floating donut only. Good luck all!
    Thanks, I agree but note with RUCK/FWD or DEF/FWD the main issue is who will be your Emergency, ie the guy you get a free hit.

    You need an Emergency who will play which fits the fixture, for example Daniher would be perfect as an Emergency as Essendon has lots of early games. Thus if Daniher does well then the Floating Donut starts. If Daniher does bad the the Floating Donuts moves somewhere else and you start your normal forward with Daniher on the bench. Therefore, you get a free hit with Daniher.

    I understand your reasoning but it apears that while you are getting the benefit of the Captain Loophole, from a cursory look you are not getting the benefit of the EMG loophole. I do however agree that the Floating Donut forgoes some cash cow in the midfield, which is no fun, but it's the price you pay for flexibilities, however again it's up to everyone's individual preference.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On a side issue, those intending to select Kommer (who Hird has confirmed will debut) have more reasons to use the Floating Donut as Kommer/Essendon have many early games. Naturally, you are selecting Kommer as you think he will appreciate in value and not to assist the Floating Donut. But if you do pick Kommer, he is perfect!
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    Sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path - Morpheus
    Let no man forget how menacing we are, we are lions! Do you know what's waiting beyond that beach?Immortality! Take it! It's Yours! - Achilles

  7. #7
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    1 Not allowed!

    Thanks Jay - agree. My scan of the fixture (much less scientific than yours) suggest North and Port were both good fixture wise...
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  8. #8
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    0 Not allowed!

    Apologies for this, but I need to add.

    Definite benefits based on the table:

    • 9 x Captain Loophole
    • 7 x EMG Loophole (MID rookie)
    • 4 x EMG Loophole (DEF rookie) (rd 2,5,7,9)

    With the DEF, it's reduced from 7 to 4, as you may need a swingman to bring lolRicho to DEF, depending on if you are happy with the first Emergency Score.

    Thus, if the first game for either MID(e) or DEF(e) is the MID(e) then:

    • If you are not happy with MID(e)'s score, then you need to swing lolRicho to the DEF immediately after the game.
    • If you are happy with MID(e) then you leave lolRicho as a starter.

    If the first game for either MID(e) or DEF(e) is the DEF(e) then:

    • If you are not happy with DEF(e)'s score, then you leave as is
    • If you are happy with MID(e) then you need to swing lolRicho to the DEF immediately after the game to get DEF(e) score

    If you have Kommer then you get 6 x EMG Loophole (DEF Rookie) for rd 1,4 (in addition to 2,5,7,9). Also if Kommer plays in rd 3,6 you get an increase in the EMG Loophole MID rookie from 7 to 9.

    Sorry for all this and yes, it's tiring. However, I won't go into every detail for every advantage.

    However, If you intend to have Kommer or Crouch (if named) then the bare mininum benefit is:

    • 9 x Captain Loophole
    • 7 x EMG Loophole (MID rookie)
    • 5 x EMG Loophole (DEF rookie) (rd 1,2,5,7,9) - reduced due to DEF with MID Swingman required to play after first EMG game
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    Sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path - Morpheus
    Let no man forget how menacing we are, we are lions! Do you know what's waiting beyond that beach?Immortality! Take it! It's Yours! - Achilles

  9. #9
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    0 Not allowed!

    My head starts to hurt when I start thining of all the possibilities and scenarios in using this.
    I do have a concern though in your analysis and it could be because my head hurts and I'm not understanding it but - if you only have 1 none playing/scoring player as the floating donut can you not only do either the captain loophole or the emergency loophole and not both
    So you have an option for either the CL ot the EL 9 times within the first 10 rounds
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  10. #10
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    0 Not allowed!

    Wow I tried understanding this but could not cope- I've been hard core into research and getting my team right this year but I think supercoach fatigue has finally set in and this is too much for me!!! I won't be worrying about a floating donut but will have my R4 non playing for captain loophole.

    I will be employing the "Stevie Bartel trick" this year though in R1. If Caff scores well Stevie is in my team and Caff emerg. Caff scores 50 then I am more than happy to take Jimmy Bartel over Stevie and Caff's 50 can stay on the bench.
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  11. #11
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    0 Not allowed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairy View Post
    I've got big Cox and I feel he is more likely to give me a 130+ score than Goddard. So I'll be going for the mid/fwd swinger.
    Exactly, I think ruckmen like Cox are great captains, especially this weekend as he's playing against griffin.
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  12. #12
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    0 Not allowed!

    Is it possible to not actually have a proper floating donut, and just use the non-playing cash cows or rarely-playing cash cows for the role?
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      Quote Quote

  13. #13
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    0 Not allowed!

    Some more more food for though...You've already indicated, Jay that having a floating donut is worth the $200k a Cash cow might provide.

    What about the notion that the floating donut is worth sacrificing a Cash Cow AND a trade ?

    The reason I raise this question is:

    Collingwood (aka Sam Dwyer or even Ben Richmond (DEF/FWD)) play the 8th game of the round for the first 3 weeks, then North take over as the preferred floating donut team with the 9th game in each of rounds 4,5..
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  14. #14
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    0 Not allowed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywhitebirds View Post
    Great article, been interesting watching the floating donut debate evolve over recent months

    I debated the MID/DEF floating donut and couldn't justify the loss of a mid rookie position (for me, the opportunity cost is a mitchell, stevens, kommer etc who would otherwise be in my side). I have gone for the DEF/FWD floating donut of Staker, who will interchange with Watts. This also works with Rowe/Cox in my RUC/FWD line to provide a lot of optionality. Once Staker starts playing, I'll move to a RUC/FWD floating donut only. Good luck all!
    Your other D/F option is Clay Cameron (Gold Coast, 109.5k) as he can always be interchanged at the same time as Ablett. With the Suns never playing Friday night it means every week you can have a punt on a VC option with Ablett as your backup. (And the Suns never play in the last game of the round so you likely will have a f/d option to put as the emergency when Cameron is on the ground)

    I won't be taking Cameron though as where possible I will be looking to have Ablett as VC most of the time. I simply don't want to be faced with the situation whereby my VC scores 130, I lock him in as captain, only then to see Ablett belt out a 180.
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  15. #15
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    0 Not allowed!

    Great article Jay and i think one floating donut is enough to handle. again it is especially good if you have access to change your line up after each match which im sure will become difficult for some. anyhow im taking the punt.
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  16. #16
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    1 Not allowed!

    Nice work Jay 'm definately going the floating donut only im 3k short of Richardson so i'll be going with Prudden from the bulldogs and with non selection of Crouch i'll replace with Kommer as the emergency in mid.

  17. #17
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    0 Not allowed!

    WARNING: MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT HAVE 2 EMERGENCY IN ONE LINE!!

    Always make sure you have 1 Emergency per line (DEF, MID, RUC, FWD).

    Remember it is a Rolling Lock Out so technically you do not need an EMG.

    The reason you do not have 2 Emergency in any line is that you get the lowest score of the 2 Emergency in any line!
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    Sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path - Morpheus
    Let no man forget how menacing we are, we are lions! Do you know what's waiting beyond that beach?Immortality! Take it! It's Yours! - Achilles

  18. #18
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    0 Not allowed!

    Any one considering floating the R2 between Blicavs and Currie/Daw with a second R/F donut .

  19. #19
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    0 Not allowed!

    First up, thanks Jay for the info on the strat and also on the double emergency - I am learning slowly! Second up, thanks Jay for the idea of Southern Man (ie Speight) as a Mid/Fwd floater, think he is the most useful for me.

    I was thinking of using Big Cox as my Big V this week and then realised that would cause issues if my R2 wasn't picked (stupid split round), so I flipped the Big V to Big Tex - here is hoping he has a big night against Essendon.

    A couple of questions for those more smarter than me (and as I have no idea what the mechanics are once SC actually starts):
    - Having a donut floater as a DPP is just for more options, yes? You don't need to play the floater in the line of your V do you?
    - Say I have L Brown (stupid Crows not selecting Crouch), if I select him as an E for the game tonight and give myself more options on other rookies (if the same thing happens next week) - would this be considered a good idea or not?
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  20. #20
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    1 Not allowed!

    Answers:

    Q - Having a donut floater as a DPP is just for more options, yes? You don't need to play the floater in the line of your V do you? A
    A -Yes, Vice-Capt can be anyhere so if you have Dangerfield(VC), you can still use Speight (FWD) as your Floating Donut as Captain to get Dangerfield's score..

    Q - Say I have L Brown (stupid Crows not selecting Crouch), if I select him as an E for the game tonight and give myself more options on other rookies (if the same thing happens next week) - would this be considered a good idea or not
    A - If you are picking Brown then it should be because you think he is a decent cash cow. The Emergency Player Loophole is only there to have 2 free hits, but the aim is to get cash cows. You make L.Brown an EMG as a precaution in case he becomes a lemon or is subbed of and you don't want his score.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeptideCourage View Post
    First up, thanks Jay for the info on the strat and also on the double emergency - I am learning slowly! Second up, thanks Jay for the idea of Southern Man (ie Speight) as a Mid/Fwd floater, think he is the most useful for me.

    I was thinking of using Big Cox as my Big V this week and then realised that would cause issues if my R2 wasn't picked (stupid split round), so I flipped the Big V to Big Tex - here is hoping he has a big night against Essendon.

    A couple of questions for those more smarter than me (and as I have no idea what the mechanics are once SC actually starts):
    - Having a donut floater as a DPP is just for more options, yes? You don't need to play the floater in the line of your V do you?
    - Say I have L Brown (stupid Crows not selecting Crouch), if I select him as an E for the game tonight and give myself more options on other rookies (if the same thing happens next week) - would this be considered a good idea or not?
    SuperCoach:  Winner (2011)  724 (2010)  188 (2009)  AFL Dream Team:  26 (2011) 

    Sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path - Morpheus
    Let no man forget how menacing we are, we are lions! Do you know what's waiting beyond that beach?Immortality! Take it! It's Yours! - Achilles

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